Resizing Bottle Neck Cases

Recently, I purchased a bunch of 308 WIN once-fired brass for reloading. I ran the brass through my Rock Chucker Supreme with #3 shell holder and Lee Pacesetter full length die set. I adjusted the die according to Lee's instruction, and I cannot get the brass to fit my Hornady Go/No Go Gauge (#380716). See image attached.

Short of using a small base sizing die, is there any reason this brass should not drop into the gauge for headspace testing? Bear in mind, factory rounds do fall into the gauge as expected.

Thoughts?Attachment 325721

See if the brass chambers in your rifle. That's all that matters.
Rick

If that is a case length gauge, it tells me the case is to long.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

How did you set up the die? Did you just try and neck size it? For full length sizing of unknown brass screw the die in till it touches the shellholder then another 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn to take up the slack. When the ram is raised without a case you should feel a slight "bump" at the end when the shell holder hits the die. My guess is when you size a case with the current die setup the shellholder is not touching the die.

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Originally Posted by RickinTN

See if the brass chambers in your rifle. That's all that matters.
Rick

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The Way I was Taught.. I never used the Gauges I have.... Never
Look at it this way...there is what is Called Tolerances built into Ammo and Chambers...so using a Minimum Gauge, if you happen to have a Maximum Chamber...You have Introduced a Headspace Mismatch... Why???
Every one should need to load for a Wildcat, before starting any Factory Bottleneck CTG Reloading. My Opinion!!!

Rick,

I ran a couple pieces of empty brass into my Ruger American Gen II, and I wish the bolt closure was a little smoother, so that I could feel any interference issues. That being said, The brass cycled through the rifle and extracted without issue.

This is a Go/No-Go gauge. When looking into the neck end of the gauge, with freshly sized brass in it, there is still room between the mouth of the brass and the gauge internal shoulder. I tried making sure there were no burrs on the mouth O.D., just in case that was causing the resistance I was feeling. Still will not drop in the gauge all the way.

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Originally Posted by RoccoVjr66

Rick,

I ran a couple pieces of empty brass into my Ruger American Gen II, and I wish the bolt closure was a little smoother, so that I could feel any interference issues. That being said, The brass cycled through the rifle and extracted without issue.

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Not Broken...so, You Cant Fix It

Ran the ram up all the way, ran the die down to touch, then adjusted my die down another 1/4 turn. I tried going further, although I was experiencing what I thought was sufficient cam-over at the end of the stroke, but the brass will still not fit the gauge. I have experimented with anywhere from just touching to a 1/2 turn down on the die - No good either way. I am starting to believe the mindset of, if it chambers (and headspace and OAL are okay), then I should be good to go. I do have an RCBS Precision Mic coming for headspace and chamber measurement. Not sure when I will be receiving that, but I am anxious to try it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoccoVjr66

Ran the ram up all the way, ran the die down to touch, then adjusted my die down another 1/4 turn. I tried going further, although I was experiencing what I thought was sufficient cam-over at the end of the stroke, but the brass will still not fit the gauge. I have experimented with anywhere from just touching to a 1/2 turn down on the die - No good either way. I am starting to believe the mindset of, if it chambers (and headspace and OAL are okay), then I should be good to go. I do have an RCBS Precision Mic coming for headspace and chamber measurement. Not sure when I will be receiving that, but I am anxious to try it out.

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If you use a bolt gun, and Partial resize to chamber...you are good with headspace...with Your ammo, In Your Gun...
I have Not fallen for the "buy a Heavy Press, and then Twist the die down Beyond Touching shellholder" Crowd...Why???

That much sticking out (rim is roughly .050 on 308) is more than likely a difference in the body tapers. Even machine gun brass would have that much excess head space. a few thousandths on the body will though. I did use a small based die at times and it did take the body taper and base down more. Its seldom needed on factory chambers unless some semi auto or single shots, custom cut chambers are different. Machine gun brass is a different animal also as the chambers are larger. Once sized to fit and fire formed size just enough to bump the shoulder back .001-.002 this will give you longer brass life and a good easy fit.

Thanks Country Gent,
I am starting to wonder whether or not the Go/No-go gauge is of any use for reloading. When I check the case dimensions with my micrometer, the sizing die is forming the brass to smaller than SAAMI chamber dimensions, which is what I would expect. I hope to further my clarity with time, using the RCBS Precision Mic.
Attachment 325725Attachment 325726

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Originally Posted by racepres

If you use a bolt gun, and Partial resize to chamber...you are good with headspace...with Your ammo, In Your Gun...
I have Not fallen for the "buy a Heavy Press, and then Twist the die down Beyond Touching shellholder" Crowd...Why???

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I did not mean you need a heavy press or use a lot of force when the shellholder touches. Most presses have a little give in them so if you just screw the die in to barely touch the shell holder when you set it up the shell holder will be 1/8 inch away from the die when actually sizing a case. You can clearly see this by looking when the ram is fully up.

When setting up for full length resizing I screw the die to touch then a little more to when you work the press without a case you feel a slight "bump" at the end when the shellholder is under a little tension. This is not a lot of force and you shouldn't be pushing hard but you will feel slight resistance at the end.

It only takes 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn (Thinking about it I was wrong when I said 1/2).

Delkal,
It does get a little confusing with the information available on the web. "The Real Gunsmith" does mention that most people are sizing their brass all wrong. I do understand his message, however that conflicts with the manufacturer's recommended setup procedure. Nonetheless, I am learning as I go, and I appreciate all the feedback.

You did not specify use. Punching tin cans, casual plinking, hunting and competition all require very different levels of precision. To answer for one use is to leave the others unanswered.

Something to give some perspective. Dies, shell holders are manufactured to upper end tolerances, gauges and chambers to min specs. I have had tight chambers cut that had to have .010 faced of the bottom to size all the way. What you might try is a different shell holder. What may be causing this is the radius at the die mouth and shell holder combination not getting all the way down.

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Originally Posted by RoccoVjr66

Delkal,
It does get a little confusing with the information available on the web. "The Real Gunsmith" does mention that most people are sizing their brass all wrong. I do understand his message, however that conflicts with the manufacturer's recommended setup procedure. Nonetheless, I am learning as I go, and I appreciate all the feedback.

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It can be confusing and my advice to make sure the shellholder fully touches the die is mostly for the first time you use brass that was fired in other rifles. Or if you are loading for multiple rifles. If you are just loading for one rifle after the first sizing and the initial fireform you just necksize or barely bump the shoulder back to fit your chamber so you don't overwork the brass or cause artificial headspace issues.

When I just want to bump the shoulder I take a dry erase marker and blacken the neck and shoulder. Then size a case and see where the black is removed and the line stops. Keep lowering the die till you see the line at the base of the neck for neck sizing or a little more to where you see a little (not all) of the shoulder hit. Most of the time you can see a little daylight between the shellholder and the die when partially sizing but this is not always the case. I have some die combinations where you have to fully hit the die to even touch the shoulder.

If the cases fit your rifle, why would you want to size them smaller?

All other things being OK:
If the case gauge is at the smaller end of the tolerances for them, and the die is at the larger end-
That cause cause the issue, but the case would still fit the chamber.

On the other hand---
I remember back in the old days, I'd gotten 1,000 GI once fired 7.62 NATO.
The brass had images in their tarnish from links.
No big deal, but they usually come fired formed to a M-60's rather 'generous' chamber.
I got a new Lee die set, and with little kids, working full time, etc. time was a little short for my hobbies.
I just set up & sized 'em all 'like I always did'.
Then putting the first one together and dropping it in a M1A.... the bolt wouldn't close.
Not on a loaded round,,,, or even a sized but empty brass.

After more sad singing and slow walking than a New Orleans Jazz funeral,
I figured out the sizing die was too big, or other wise out of specs.

And yes, that was the last Lee die I ever bought.

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Originally Posted by RoccoVjr66

Delkal,
It does get a little confusing with the information available on the web. "The Real Gunsmith" does mention that most people are sizing their brass all wrong. I do understand his message, however that conflicts with the manufacturer's recommended setup procedure. Nonetheless, I am learning as I go, and I appreciate all the feedback.

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Never thought I would be defending "The Real Gunsmith" but he is correct most are not setting up their dies for optimal performance. The manufactures recommendations are based on producing ammo within SAAMI standards. The die manufactures recommendations are designed for the least knowledgeable reload. Nothing more.

The RCBS case mic is a wonderful tool for properly seat shoulder bump. It is also direct reading. That means it reads actual measures and not a comparator. When it reads ZERO on the setting that is the SAAMI minimum for that cartridge.

On the cases that do not go fully into your go gauge blacken them with a magic marker and twist the case into the gauge to see where the contact is. Once you know that you can determine what the issue is.

Having the expander button set too high, lack of lube or a rough expander button can pull the shoulder out when sizing.

Never mind the shells function ok in your rifle, throw out that damned Lee stuff and buy new dies.

Wayne,
Although I know hunting and competition probably command a higher investment in components and equipment, I would like to set that as my goal. First and foremost is safety. I want to make sure what I reload is safe and dependable.

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Originally Posted by RoccoVjr66

Wayne,
Although I know hunting and competition probably command a higher investment in components and equipment, I would like to set that as my goal. First and foremost is safety. I want to make sure what I reload is safe and dependable.

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Knowledge equals safety when it comes to reloading. You already have a RCBS case mic you have the ability to better than some place withing SAAMI standards at zero cost and minimal effort. The ultimate go/no go gauge is the chamber it's intended to go into.

Personally I find the Hornady Go/No Go Gauge (#380716) type gauges of limited value compared to better options like the RCBS case mic or the Hornady Case Comparator.

I like the dry erase marker idea. All my rounds will be fire-formed, since the rifle is new. I will make note of the ram/die relationship, next time I run some brass through the sizer. I do have a neck sizer die, so I will use that when I fire my reloaded rounds through the rifle, so that I don't overwork the brass. Thanks for the tips!

Winger Ed,
I received a couple replies regarding the Lee die set. Did you settle on a brand that works well for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by racepres

The Way I was Taught.. I never used the Gauges I have.... Never
Look at it this way...there is what is Called Tolerances built into Ammo and Chambers...so using a Minimum Gauge, if you happen to have a Maximum Chamber...You have Introduced a Headspace Mismatch... Why???
Every one should need to load for a Wildcat, before starting any Factory Bottleneck CTG Reloading. My Opinion!!!

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Well said, I totally agree

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Originally Posted by elmacgyver0

Never mind the shells function ok in your rifle, throw out that damned Lee stuff and buy new dies.

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Yea,,,Great plan....NOT, Nothing wrong with my Lee Dies...except they din't Cost enough...Maybe?
Invest in a Neck Die...or...for 30 caliber...I use my Lee 32ACP die!!!! Darn I might be a RedNeck!!!

I suggest borrowing another size die and see if there's any difference.

Grind off 50 thous of the bottom of the die (not shell holder - they are HARD). Screw down the die extra 1/2 turn and size a case. If the bolt closes with little resistance, that's good for YOUR chamber. Else another 1/2 turn and repeat. I use Lee and RCBS die that need the grinding. Annealing Mil brass first is a good idea. Also look for rim dings that prevent fitting in the case gauge. My Lee press doesn't 'cam' over so trying just stresses the press. Use plenty of good case lube! Another hint. Drop the ram about half, rotate the brass 90 deg. and size again, Mil brass is tough and has some spring back.

^^^^ Lots of good advice.