Dropped Gun Discharge!

[45_Colt]

Having watched a .45 1911 being tossed some 20 feet down range, it didn't discharge. It was locked & loaded. I don't know if it had the S 80 firing pin block or not.

45_Colt

[deltaenterprizes]

A 1911 pre Series 80 without a firing pin block can fire if there is a round in the chamber and the hammer is down resting on the firing pin.
This is the incorrect way to carry a 1911 but a lot of people carry it this way thinking that they will have time to cock the hammer.
I personally know a gentleman that is walking around with a 380ACP bullet in his ankle because he had a Browning 380 with the same design go off when it fell out of his back pocket.
It was Federal ammunition and I saw the fired case. It had a small dent like you see when you eject a router from an AR-15 but it was enough to make the cartridge fire.
The bullet ricocheted off the pavement and lodged in his ankle and is there till this day.

[45_Colt]

A 1911 pre Series 80 without a firing pin block can fire if there is a round in the chamber and the hammer is down resting on the firing pin.

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

[HumptyDumpty]

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

That is correct, the firing pin is not in contact with the primer when the hammer is down.

[deltaenterprizes]

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

Correct, it is not in contact but is much closer so it doesn’t need to travel very far to make contact!
This is not a here say story, I am very well acquainted with him, I worked with him for 20 years.
A lot of older semiautomatic pistols with safeties that block the firing pin like my S&W Model 39 if it is carried with a round in the chamber and the safety off and the hammer down it can fire if it is dropped and the muzzle hits the ground.
That is why Colt came up with the firing pin block in the Series 80!

[varmintpopper]

Point the gun straight down and perform grip safety check by pulling the trigger without depressing the safety. Hammer should not fall. If it does, the right leaf of the sear spring is allowing the safety to disengage by gravity and should be fixed. Holding the gun parallel to the floor doesn't give you a true test of the grip safety because the gun isn't carried that way.

[deltaenterprizes]

Inertia is what makes the firing pin continue moving forward when the gun hits the ground on the muzzle!
With the hammer down on a chambered round it only takes a small amount of movement of the firing pin.
The frame stops moving but the firing pin continues forward.
It is like in a car wreck the car hits a tree at stops but the people inside continue moving forward and can be ejected through the windshield jig they are not wearing a seat belt.
Even with a seat belt they continue moving forward slightly.

[rintinglen]

Without examining the gun, I am hesitant to attempt to categorically identify a cause of this event. Other than, of course, clumsiness in dropping the weapon in the first place. But having seen 1911's machine-gun, watching a hammer drop when the safety was pushed off and observing a dented primer from a dropped pistol, I won't totally discount the possibility of a weapon's malfunction. I don't know who has been monkeying with that gun or what they did to it, nor how much use and or neglect that gun has undergone. Assuming it was in proper functioning order, it shouldn't have gone bang. But it did. The cause was either mechanical failure or human error.

My experience in investigating industrial accidents makes me willing to put 9-1 odds on it being human error versus mechanical failure.

[HumptyDumpty]

With a primed cased in the chamber, and the slide zip-tied into battery, I drop a commander slide straight down onto my driveway. Results as follows:
10 feet, directly onto the concrete- Popped primer
5 feet, onto a piece of hard wood- No detonation of the primer
5 feet, directly onto the concrete- Popped primer
3 feet, onto a piece of hard wood- No detonation
3 feet, directly onto concrete- No detonation

[HumptyDumpty]

I concede that it is technically possible, but still believe that it is incredibly unlikely in day-to-day scenarios.

[elmacgyver0]

I don't believe that this is correct. A hammer down condition pushes the firing pin in, but it can't reach the primer. The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin, IOW, when the hammer strikes it, it then extends far enough to strike the primer.

45_Colt

Evidently you have never seen the gadget that has a row of steel balls suspended by wires.
You lift a ball on one end and release it, it hits the next ball and the far ball on the other end moves.
Works the same way with the hammer next to the firing pin on a gun without the firing pin block.
That is why they added the block, to cover the clowns who carry with the hammer down.

[deltaenterprizes]

Evidently you have never seen the gadget that has a row of steel balls suspended by wires.
You lift a ball on one end and release it, it hits the next ball and the far ball on the other end moves.
Works the same way with the hammer next to the firing pin on a gun without the firing pin block.
That is why they added the block, to cover the clowns who carry with the hammer down.

Excellent illustration!

[JimB..]

I concede that it is technically possible, but still believe that it is incredibly unlikely in day-to-day scenarios.

Thanks for running the test, and I agree that it is unlikely.

[beshears]

One major safety rule We stress at matches is if You drop Your firearm do NOT try to catch it. Let the range officer pick it up. Grabbing it in the air no telling what you are going to grab.

[45_Colt]

Evidently you have never seen the gadget that has a row of steel balls suspended by wires.
You lift a ball on one end and release it, it hits the next ball and the far ball on the other end moves.
Works the same way with the hammer next to the firing pin on a gun without the firing pin block.
That is why they added the block, to cover the clowns who carry with the hammer down.

I have, and have one here. But that is different from striking the back of the hammer. Most of the hammer is against the firing pin stop. Along with a gap between the firing pin and primer. Of which the firing pin also has a spring to hold it back.

Unlike the early SA revolvers where the firing pin with a hammer down actually resting on the primer. Which is what my post was regarding.

Besides, deltaenterprizes was talking about the abrupt stop of the pistol, muzzle down, on a hard surface. Imparting enough inertia to the firing pin to set off the primer. And even with the hammer down, yes, the firing pin is closer to the primer, but the firing pin return spring is also compressed more imparting more force in the rearward direction.

Which according to HD'y tests, needs at least a 5' drop. Which is on par with other tests I've seen..

Note that a good/new firing pin spring along with a titanium firing pin would go a long way to eliminating/reducing the chance of a dropped gun discharge. If one is worried about it.

45_Colt

[Duckiller]

You need to buy your guns from California. Every handgun but single action revolvers must pass a DOJ drop test. If it drops and goes bang then it isn't sold in Cal. SAA is exempt because some older legislators had Colts that they knew would go bang. They didn't want to give up guns that had been in the family for years so they exempted them from the law. Didn't want to play favorites so they exempted all single action revolvers, even Rugers. Do manufactures really make special guns for California or do they just don't sell gun that can't be safely dropped in Cal?

[GregLaROCHE]

All the safeties were to keep the trigger from being pulled. A sharp impact on the hammer could have caused it to discharge.

[725]

Agree varmint popper. Who's to say the actual condition of the 1911 in question. If this story is even true, at all.

"...if all is as it should be, the 1911 is a very safe gun."

[45_Colt]

All the safeties were to keep the trigger from being pulled. A sharp impact on the hammer could have caused it to discharge.

On a 1911, neither of these statements are true.

45_Colt

[Spooksar]

When I shot 3 gun we had people they would plan the grip safety thinking it would make the shot faster. The rules in our local 3 gun association allowed this and I strongly disagreed with it.