38 Spec. Round Ball Loads

[GRUMPA]

I'm not 100% on this but I'm almost certain that we weighed the projectiles and came up with a load that was in the books by the coresponding weight. The one thing we did make sure we did was make 2 thick wads with something like thick cardboard by spinnng a 9mm in the hand drill basically making a nice round wad and put put it over the powder and another between each ball.

[MakeMineA10mm]

If I load 2 balls in the 38 Spec.
What would be a mild charge for the two ? ?
I'm thinking about 2.3 - - 2.4 grs. of Red Dot ? ?

Ben

Ben,
I think you're using too fast of a powder. Two RBs weigh about what a 158gr SWC weigh, but their shape causes them to be seated deeper than a full WC. I'd go with a starting load of a slower powder like Unique, Herco, Blue Dot, AA#5 or #7 -- you get the idea, something medium-slow.

When you switch to three RBs in a 357, you're going to have to go to a super-slow (for pistols) powder, like 4227.

I read an article about that very thing, and they said out to about 25 feet they would hit flat on, and 4 could fit, if the first two were sized a bit so as to not bulge the brass too much.

Can't remember who/where I read that though.

they also made a punch to put a truncated cone/hollow on them, so they still stacked 4 in a Mag case, 3 in a Sp case

I think it was Wiley Clapp you are thinking of. IIRC, he bored out the cylinder throats on a cheap 357 Mag. he had (Taurus, I think), so that 357 Maximum brass would fit in the cylinder. He then cast up a bunch of H&G short WCs (maybe H&G #333 for the mould number?) and he was able to load FOUR of them on top of one another in the 357 Maximum case and load them in the modified Taurus. He called it the 357 Quadrimaximum or something like that. He is where I got the warning about using slow powders. He said with the FOUR WCs, 4227 was the only powder that was safe to load to usable velocities. It's been a LONG time ago, but IIRC, those WCs weighed about 60-65grs each and he was getting around 900fps with the 4227 load, but like I said, it was a LONG time ago.


I've been hankering for LEE to come out with their 18-cavity buckshot mould in .360" diameter, because I'd like to load these as a 3RB load in 357, leaving them connected!

[Ben]

MakeMineA10mm

You do know that your hankering is now over ? ?

http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/...-buckshot-mold

[MakeMineA10mm]

MakeMineA10mm

You do know that your hankering is now over ? ?

http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/...-buckshot-mold

NO! I DIDN"T KNOW THAT!!!!!!

How did I miss that?!?!?


Thank you very much. Placing the order right now!!!!!

[MakeMineA10mm]

Whew! It's on the way. If all goes according to plan, I should get a few of these cast up in the next 10 days. Then, it's off to the loading room to see how these fit/work in 38 Special cases loaded to 357 Mag lengths...

I wonder how resilient the connection is between the balls, as well as how much space there is between them? Can't wait!

I wonder if my hankering for the same thing in .312" diameter (or so) would get the same quick production by Lee?!?

[Ben]

Keep us posted please.

Ben

[thegreatdane]

Hey all. This topic was recently discussed over at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=141106 I subscribed to both and have recently done quite a bit of testing with 38 round ball. One thing is for sure: they sure are fun to shoot!

In 38, I chose my loading data based on 148gn WCs, since two 360-ish round balls weigh approximately 140gn and are loaded to similar lengths. My current load is 3.0gn Titegroup behind two tumble lubed 000 buck roundballs. It's a bit of a puff load, but is fun (the whole point) and not painful in my itty bitty revolver.

Also, I'm casting mine from the big ole lee 000 mold and doing the alox bath once separated. I've experienced zero leading (cast from range scrap), and about .5 in spread, from a snubby, at 7 yds. Of course, the pattern increases with distance. Interestingly enough, from my GP100, the same load has a larger pattern than the snubby. I'm not sure why this happens, but I suspect it's due to increased velocity and aerodynamic effects of the round ball. Out past say, 15yds, they're going slow enough that they make an ugly smashed hole in paper instead of clean cuts experienced up close.

I've yet to experiment with 357. I'd like to try 357 velocities with two, and a slower 3-ball 357.

[beagle]

Ben, you're having such fun with that .38 Special and multiball loads that I can't wait until you discover that you can make 3 ball roundball loads for that .45/70 you have./beagle

[Ben]

Beagle,

I"m pretty simple minded, I can only entertain myself with 1 toy at a time.

Ben

[nanuk]

10MM, you're right.... that was the article

[358 Win]

Tried the single ball route with my .44 Mag Super Blackhawk using Speer commercial .44 Cal
muzzle loader ball. Only problem I had was the revolver would lock up due to primers backing
out with loads producing too low of a pressure. Finally at 6.5gr of Red Dot the primers stopped backing out and locking things up. Super fun to load and shoot. I used to glob some
alox lube around sides of the exposed ball, load em up and shoot. Never chronographed them but sure felt "zippy"!
358 Win

[crawfobj]

Will be anxiously watching this to see how the rbs from the new lee mold would work if loaded while they're still attached...

[thegreatdane]

Will be anxiously watching this to see how the rbs from the new lee mold would work if loaded while they're still attached...

That's next!

[Roundgunner]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I make my 3 ball loads and do not see any signs of pressure.

357 mag case, 3-000 buckshot balls sized to .358 over 3gr of unique. I use shoe box cardboard between the balls and tumble lube lightly. It gives me 680fps with a 4” 686.

They work OK, I used them to win a bet. A shooting buddy would setup IDPA courses that were impossible to shoot with a revolver. He did it again, when I complained he blew me off, I happened to have the 3 ball loads with me so I bet him a box of ammo I could beat him and his auto at his own stage.

I needed 3 hits on each target, one shot each did the trick and he paid up. He was also a bit better at course design after that.

Other than playing around like that I don't have any other use for a 3 ball load.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well guys the mould is in, cleaned and assembled onto handles, but my wife had elbow surgery this week and needs 24 hour attention, at least for now, so it's going to be a week or so before I can go cast some up. (Believe me, it's killing me too! )

I have done some thinking, and if I'm leaving these connected, there's going to be almost .530" sticking out the mouth of the case, so getting them to crimp right and not be too long, I'm going to load these in 38 Spl. cases. Exact weight, OAL of the 3RBs while connected, and location of the crimp-band will come when I have some of these in hand to measure and weigh.

I plan on seating these so that the "belt" where the middle ball is at it's widest point is just below the mouth of the case, so the crimp is over the "ogive" of the middle ball. Just doing some back-of-the-napkin figuring, I still might be too long... However, the experiment is worth it, IMO, if we can lower pressures by moving the mass of the projectile farther out of the case, thereby increasing the powder chamber. I may have to "crimp" out in the middle of the air in between the outside ball and the middle ball.

[BarryinIN]

I have a Rapine .360 RB mold, and have cast some and lubed with LLA but have yet to load any. That mold leaves such a hard to see sprue cut that it's gonna be tough to put it at 12:00! It's one time I almost wish it left it a little ragged.

I did try some double RB loads in ..44 Spl using a Lee .433 RB mold. What I found was that probably 80% of the time, the two balls would be separated about the same direction, or plane: If I drew a line connecting the holes, the line would be about 30 degrees above horizontal. The few that weren't were pretty much stacked vertically. I expected a more random split.
Interesting.
I'd be curious to know if anyone else had this same thing. I need to try them in my other .44 Spl to see if it does the same.

I loaded some triple ball 45-70s I need to shoot sometime.

[DCP]

I would think one would want to use FAST burning powder
Even with a 2 or 3 ball load I would think these would be considered a light loads.

With Slow burning powder if you dont fill the case. You could have something called SEE
With Fast Burning powder SEE wont happen


I talked to a Lyman technical representative that works in the ballistics lab.

You can load light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads? If you load correctly and safely.

He fires light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads in his lab

The math and science says you can’t do any damage the power is just not there.

He said this is an old (wise tale) that won’t go away and he gets 2 or 3 calls a week on this.
He said some manufactures are still promoting this (wise tale) for some reason.

Using 2 grains of 700x. If double or triple charges a 357 you will still be ok. BUT
(Use good loading practices never double or triple charge)

Never mix powder.
Never fire a weapon with a bore obstruction
Load correctly and safely


He said good powders for light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads?


700x
Unique
Green Dot
231
Acc 5

[Keith Sacane]

I'm curious about this as well. A friend of mine is trying to find a 357 load to take with him while checking traps for Cougars that uses two or three round balls. It would need to have enough power though to be useful for him. I'm curious if it's possible to get a fairly powerful three ball load in a 357.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Negative, on all counts...

Let's say we're loading for a 357 Mag, with a load using 158gr bullets and 5.0grs of powder.

Things that increase pressure drastically even when only changing one variable at a time:

• Faster powders (5.0grs of 700x is going to be much higher-pressure than 5.0grs of blue dot)
• Deeper seating (shoving the 158gr bullet down so the tip is even with the case mouth is much higher pressure than if seated normally)
• Heavy-for-caliber bullets (switching out the 158gr bullet for a 300gr bullet would make the 300gr load much higher pressure)

We can get away with doing drastic changes if we compensate for one variable with another. So, if we're seating deeper, we want to switch to a lighter bullet, or if we're using a super-heavy bullet, we want to go to a slower powder.

In our case with 3 RBs, we're using a super heavy bullet that also seats deeper, so the only way we have to control pressure is switching to a slow powder. My experiment with leaving the balls connected is to also help address pressure by moving some of the mass of the projectile forward out of the case, thereby freeing up powder space. This isn't to put more powder in; this is to decrease the confined space the powder is in initially which reduces pressures. (This in turn may allow the load to be increased to get more performance, but that is an exponentially smaller benefit to the lower pressure.)

Without getting things very off-track from the purpose of this thread, SEE is a difficult-to-quantify or repeat condition that inconsistently occurs with too small of a load of powder which is too slow burning for the application in a powder space that is grossly over-volume for the load. Think 20grs of H5010 in a 7mm Rem Mag case. In that situation, switching to a faster burning powder prevents SEE while allowing reduced loads, BUT the pressure is kept safe by that large-volume case. (I've never heard of SEE happening in any pistol caliber.) In this 3RB scenario in a 357 chamber, we have a very confined space for the powder, so no "over-flashing" by the primer.

A safe load with fast powders probably cannot be constructed for this 357 3RB load, because the pressures are either so low we're risking sticking one or more of the balls in the barrel or the pressures will go over criticallity with a load of useful velocity.

I would think one would want to use FAST burning powder
Even with a 2 or 3 ball load I would think these would be considered a light loads.

With Slow burning powder if you dont fill the case. You could have something called SEE
With Fast Burning powder SEE wont happen


I talked to a Lyman technical representative that works in the ballistics lab.

You can load light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads? If you load correctly and safely.

He fires light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads in his lab

The math and science says you can’t do any damage the power is just not there.

He said this is an old (wise tale) that won’t go away and he gets 2 or 3 calls a week on this.
He said some manufactures are still promoting this (wise tale) for some reason.

Using 2 grains of 700x. If double or triple charges a 357 you will still be ok. BUT
(Use good loading practices never double or triple charge)

Never mix powder.
Never fire a weapon with a bore obstruction
Load correctly and safely


He said good powders for light loads, gallery or cat sneeze loads?


700x
Unique
Green Dot
231
Acc 5

[nanuk]

Negative, on all counts...

Things that increase pressure drastically even when only changing one variable at a time:

• Deeper seating (shoving the 158gr bullet down so the tip is even with the case mouth is much higher pressure than if seated normally)
  

now I am confused.

I recently read (on Castboolits?) a thread where deeper seating REDUCED pressure by allowing the boolit to get a running start before hitting the rifling, where the Pressure actually starts to build dramatically. A boolit in a case has little resistance.

I wish I could find that thread where this is discussed.