Bear stopper alloy

[Marlin Junky]

This is probably the wrong place to bring up this subject but, how hard should an alloy be for a bear defense load? Rifle is a 444, boolit is the Lee430310 and the impact velocity is about 1900 fps.

MJ

[RugerFan]

That depends. Do you want a degree of expansion or none at all? The pic below is of a Lyman 429244 (AC WW) that was recovered from a boar hog I shot last fall at 8 paces. Estimated MV was 1800-1850 fps (Dropped the hog in it's tracks by the way). Good penetration with the hide catching the slug on the opposite side. If you want less expansion try heat treating and/or add tin. Just keep in mind that too much linotype can cause the bullet to fragment (which would make the bear angry).

[454PB]

I'm no expert on shooting bears, but I would think that using that boolit and velocity, anything from pure lead on up would shoot clean through. Some might be larger in diameter when they exit than others though

[Marlin Junky]

I just want to win the fight. If that means I need some expansion with full penetration through muscle and bone then so be it. I cooked up some loads tonight using Lee 430310 at 300 grains naked (about 14 BHN) backed by 46 grains of Re7. I guess it's safe to go pick Huckleberries now

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

A defense bullet hardness would differ from a hunting hardness because of the shot angles presented, required, taken. A defense load is meaning the bear is coming at you pretty much head on. The head is going to be in the way of most vitals and even if it isn't, you have to plan for an accidental head hit anyway.

As fast as 1900 fps sounds for this task, it is still slow. Therefore, your lead is going to have to be hard not to deform. How hard? As hard as you can get it. Otherwise you risk hitting the head and deflection of the slug. After the head is penetrated, you must either smash through the vertibre and out or follow the back bone all the way down based upon where the bear was in his stride. (Up or down) So penetration will be a requirement either way.

IMO.

[BPCS]

Are you referring to stopping black bears or grizzly? I think I would want a bullet with a wide flat meplate, heavy weight for caliber, and standard linotype with a
Bh of 22.

[Marlin Junky]

Grizzly. The Lee430310 (similar to an WFN) is what I selected. I was under the impression Linotype is too brittle so I went with an ACWW+solder alloy that registers 14 to 15 BHN.

MJ

[RugerFan]

MJ,
Bass Ackward's advice hit the nail on the head. Very good sumation of a defense load senario. And yes, I still maintain that 100% lino is a bad idea here. A hard bullet yes, but don't risk fragmentation.

[Marlin Junky]

Am I not going to get enough penetration from a Lee430310 at BHN 14 to 15 If launched at about 2000 fps?

MJ

P.S. I'm not talking about Alaskan Brown Bears... only Montana Grizzlies.

[Bass Ackward]

Am I not going to get enough penetration from a Lee430310 at BHN 14 to 15 If launched at about 2000 fps?

MJ

P.S. I'm not talking about Alaskan Brown Bears... only Montana Grizzlies.

MJ,

I would say not based on some of the stuff I have read. A head shot with 15 BHN could deflect with the correct angle. Now I know that your next question is, what is the correct angle? My answer is that I don't know and I darn sure don't want to find out. HT that mix in some way and you should be there. But remember to load fresh stuff every six months or so because that mix will soften to about 20 BHN after one year. It might still work, but why risk it.

Realize that this is not just my theory. There are many examples of this even occuring on elk which is not as rounded. I believe that Elmer Keith had an episode like this if I can remember correctly. A head is rounded hard bone that is always moving in some direction with an oncoming animal. Do some searching and research it for yourself. Once you understand the requirements, you can better decide which way you want to go.

I can tell you how to run penetration testing for hunting, but I can think of nothing that might mimic a head bone but an actual head. There was an article written by a professional guide on many years of bear hunting within the last year where he was required to be that final line. I remember that it was a good article and he told what worked and what he wished he never found out that didn't. What I can't remember is where I read it. If I do, I will post it for you.

[Doughty]

Not that we're talking about the same thing exactly, but I once shot a wounded, angry, still on it's feet black bear in the head from a distance of about 10 yards, with a .308 Win 150 grain Sierra. The bullet didn't exit, but it put an end to his already bad day. Having fired many rounds since then, if I were in the same situation again, and armed with your rifle and load, I'd want the bullet to be WWs, oven tempered to about 24 BHN.

[Ranch Dog]

This is probably the wrong place to bring up this subject but, how hard should an alloy be for a bear defense load? Rifle is a 444, boolit is the Lee430310 and the impact velocity is about 1900 fps.

MJ... Let me add some information based on my experiences with this boolit, a similar boolit and the 444.

My casting interest started with the Lee C430-310-RF and I used it for hog hunting with my 444. My initial work was with 1 to 10, tin to WW, air cooled. These boolits were around 11 to 13 BHN and worked great on broadside shots on big hogs. In that you are asking about a bear defense boolit, let me relate my experience with a head shot hog...





The top picture is that of one absolutely pissed off trail dog. I had just shot a very large feral hog we encountered at 40-yards right square in the head with the above mentioned boolit at 1900 FPS out of my 444. The lower picture is that of my size 12D boot against the track of this hog. The end result of this encounter is that the boolit splattered against this hogs skull without entering. It knocked him down but before I could lever a second round he was on his feet and moving. The good thing is that he decided to reverse direction and leave. Me, my 444, and my dog would have been in big trouble had he continued with his intended route.

That week I bought 2000# of linotype from a old printing press and started casting 1 to 1, LT/WW. I also water quench it for a BHN of 31 to 33. To date and with dozen of big game animals taken, I have had no bad experiences with bullet fracturing.



About that same time I received my TLC432-285-RF mold from Lee so after casting with the 1/1, I tried the very scientific test of whacking the boolit with the largest sledge hammer I could find. The boolit on the right was hit with a 10# hammer as hard as I could whack it while it was sitting on a concrete floor. No fracturing.



This was my first boolit shot into a hog at 80-yards. It was broadside and passed through the nearside shield and hung up in the far side shield. It broke ribs on both sides. The muzzle velocity was 2100 FPS.



I went on to testing in the field with head on shots. I would watch a field of sunflowers in the evening, see the plants start to sway from a hog feeding, and maneuver into position for a head on shot. All these were from 20 to 25 yards with my 444P at 2100 FPS. These boolit all hit the hogs in the forehead and were found in the body cavity.

The boolit on the left is the Beartooth 300-grain WFNGC at 2000 FPS. Marshall asked me to test it. The two on the right are the Lee TLC432-285-RF cast with the 1 to 1 at 265-grains.

Where all this was leading was to for a South Texas nilgai hunt I had booked. The four ranches that these free ranging animals are available on have a very strict booking policy of belted magnums of 30 caliber or greater. It took a bit of a presentation on the 444 to convince one of the ranches to allow me to hunt with my Marlin. I wanted to use a home cast boolit but I wanted to make sure it was up to the task at hand.





This is a picture of the animal and the boolit that killed it. The boolit broke both shoulders and hung up in the hide on the far side. The shot was at 125-yards at a muzzle velocity of 2400 FPS. This is the first leveraction and first cast boolit kill the ranch has had after 50 years of hunting these animals. One hunter lost his animal after two solid hits with a 338WM.

I've shot boolits from 200-grains to 415-grains out of my 444 and would not hesitate to use the rifle for a big bear hunt. I would consider a hard-cast boolit as the medicine to use with a minimum MV of 2100 FPS. As boolits exceed 300 to 315-grains they really start to rob the cartridge of case capacity and hence, muzzle velocity.

[Marlin Junky]

So, what's the proper way to heat treat boolits cast from wheel weights and solder?

Thanks for all the advice.

MJ

P.S. And... do I heat treat, then apply gas checks or vice versa? The boolits measure about .432" and I was going to apply the GC's with a .433" (custom cut) Lyman 450 die.

[Marlin Junky]

I gave heat treating my BHN 14 to 15 alloy my best shot and failed big time. I had the bullets in a 450F oven for over an hour (thermometer said 500F but I don't believe it) and I plunged them into ice water within 4 to 5 seconds of taking them out of the oven. The result based on my Lee Hardness Tester was a slight softening compared to the same bullets that were air cooled. The only thing I can conclude at this time is there isn't enough arsenic in my alloy.

Maybe I go see what Beartooth has to offer.

MJ

[garandsrus]

MJ,

Someone with more experience will probably chime in, but I think it takes a little time for the bullets to harden up... You should have some antimony in the WW metal. Check them every day for a week or two and see what happens.

When water dropping WW, which should be pretty equivalent to the oven heat treating, I have read that the boolits should be sized and lubed shortly after casting so that they can be sized before they harden, which takes a couple days.

John

[waksupi]

Geez, you guys are scaring me! Here, I wander around the mountains all the time, with whatever gun I may happen to have, with whatever hardness bullets may happen to be in it. Dadnabbit, another thing to worry about!

Marlin Junky, if you tested the bullets immediately after quenching, they should have read as pure lead, or near to it. Give them a day to harden.

You can get pretty much any hardness you want, by experimenting with different temperatures in the oven.

[onceabull]

Ric..maybe your reputation goes before you,clearing all hazards amongst the pole timber,deadfalls,and other thickets...if not,I've a line on double 585 nambibianthunderboomer for lease,on short or long term.I'm told the last two leasee's returned it and sought refunds on 9 of the 10 cartridges they got with it.. best, Onceabull

[waksupi]

I have big boomers, just don't carry them all the time. I don't believe the guys who go out to paintball grizzlies, ever carry guns, at all. Hmmmm..... Haven't heard from them for awhile....?

[454PB]

Some years ago, a friend of mine decided to butcher one of his very nasty beef bulls. He asked me to do the kill. This bull weighed 1600 lbs., and I used my Ruger SBH loaded with the Lyman 429244 GC, cast from WW and weighing 255 gr., 24 Gr. H-110, which chronographed 1400 fps. His wife had told me she wanted the tongue from this bull. I shot him in the forehead, from above and about 3 feet away while he was contained in a shute, and the boolit traveled completely through his very large head and exited the neck, never to be found. It had penetrated about 1 1/2" of skull plate, the entire head, and went right through the tongue. His wife was really upset about that holed tongue. I'm glad she didn't want the brains.

[versifier]

How about adding a 3/8" steel ball bearing core to create a homegrown AP round? With a little bit of soldering flux on the steel, it ought to bond very well with the alloy, if it could be kept centered. How do they keep the cores centered in making military bullets?

454PB,
At our local butcher's, everything from roasting piglets to full grown cattle are dispatched by putting the muzzle of an ancient bolt action rifle touching the forehead slightly higher than right between the eyes. It never takes more than one shot. What is this amazing and versatile round? A .22 short rimfire, though they do flatten the point with a pocket knife for the bigger critters. Don't tell your friend's wife....