What alloy for 38 HBWC

[RogerDat]

Just purchased a used 38 HBWC 148 grain mold and am trying to decide what alloy I should use to cast boolits in it. Some research on the forum yielded a couple of ideas.

3 parts pure (roofing lead) + 1 part clip on WW & add about 0.1% tin. (is that really 1/10 of 1 percent?)

50/50 Plain/COWW + 1 % tin.

I'm clear that these need to be soft to perform well, but how soft? I also have some solder and was considering a 20:1 Pb/Sn mix. Or something along those lines.

My first choice for lube is 45/45/10 tumble lube. I could also powder coat shake and bake but I fear that some powder could clog the hollow base.

At this point I'm looking for what lead to cast them with but I won't ignore any 38 special loads for a snubbie, or a 357 magnum loads that folks want to suggest. I have Unique and Titegroup in good supply, I also have a little bit of Red Dot and Green Dot available.

[tazman]

They don't need to be all that soft in order to work correctly. They need to be sized for your throats and barrel just like any other boolit. The problem comes when you get them too hard. The skirt can crack and break off during firing causing a variety of problems.
Almost any alloy combination that ends up not being brittle will work just fine. I can't give you a number because I don't have a hardness tester.I found that straight wheelweights(air cooled) worked fine and pure linotype was too hard if you pushed them much beyond basic light target loads. I also used range scrap both air cooled and water dropped and both worked fine.
Years ago, we used to get swaged hbwc boolits that were pure lead or nearly so. They shot just fine.
The hot 38 special loads I used often gave two holes in the target for each boolit fired. The skirt would break off but retain enough stability to carry to the target and give a second hole. Not good. A very unsafe situation if the broken skirt were to get stuck in the barrel.
I wouldn't consider a magnum load at all.

[runfiverun]

those soft swaged boolits are 3-5% antimony and no tin.
the swaging process breaks down the antimony crystals within the lead alloy allowing the lead to flow easier and smoother.
this makes them seem like a soft lead alloy, but if you cast them into boolits you get something else.

I'd use the red dot at about 2.7-3.0grs
not knowing what you have on hand to work with but assuming you got the ww's and some soft I would mix them 50-50 and add about 1/2% tin to the mix.
if you just have straight soft lead then a 40-1 alloy should turn the trick.

[JeffinNZ]

I was thinking 40/1 also.

[RogerDat]

Well I have a little bit-o-everything. Soft plain lead, WW's, and some solder bars so 40:1 is certainly possible. I already have some 50/50 with about 1.5% tin.

I have a Lee push through sizer that provides good fit, and even though I can shoot the TL design or Lyman WC I cast without sizing there is a clear increase in accuracy if I size so I'll size these. Probably TL - Size - TL in BLL or 45/45/10 I'm trying to make a bullet for accurate target shooting so I'm going to size. I have all winter to stock up so I can afford the extra steps.

For 38 special I tend to load mild 150 or 158 grain with Titegroup at 3.2 grains, or equivalent load in Unique. 357 I mostly load toward the mild end with either Unique or 2400. Well a few rounds get loaded hotter to keep myself familiar with the feel of commercial. For punching paper why waste powder and abuse hand?

I was looking for an excuse to open the 1# bottle of Red Dot to try it out, new bullet is perfect excuse. Thanks for the load suggestion.

[tazman]

Sounds like you have a plan.
Try a few different alloy combinations and find out what works best in your gun. You may find the magic combination for your weapon is a bit different than for someone else's gun.
I tumble lube my wadcutters. I haven't found any difference in accuracy between lube types for the 38 special target loads. This may be because I am not the greatest shot with a handgun. The tumble lube process is less labor intensive for me since I don't have the room to permanently mount a lube sizer at the moment.

[RogerDat]

Well tazman much of this is going out the barrel of a snub nose so even if I was a great shot which I'm not I don't think lube would make the difference especially at the ranges I'm shooting at. Tumble lube is what I'll use unless I can find a compelling reason to do the extra work.

Might try the 50/50 + tin I have to start. It is what I cast with for most revolver already. But have wanted to try some binary Pb/Sn and have a bit of time off over the holidays so...

[dverna]

Unless shooting 50 yard Bullseye, casting HBWC is more work than it is worth.....and then you need to be a heck of a shot to tell the difference. A good WC, like the H&G 50 with 50/50 lube will shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards in a capable gun. The old 2.7 gr Bullseye load is hard to beat.

I have not shot Bullseye in decades but that was the load/bullet I used. Tested in a Ransom Rest.

BTW, I still used commercial 148 HBWC bullets at 50 yards for matches but the H&G for practice and Timed/Rapid.

Don Verna

[MT Gianni]

With the 358395 I had the best results with dental lead, as soft as there is. Do not over lube and do not try to over speed. If I had pure i would only add tin if it would not fill out, then 1 in 40 or 1 in 50.

[RogerDat]

I have a Lyman 358-495 mold which is a nice WC at 150 grain. I picked up a partial box of HBWC and liked them. I'll probably cast up around 500 bullets with this mold, in maybe a couple or three different alloys and that should last me a fair amount of time.

I melted down some dental foil, now if I can just find it.

[tazman]

I have the 358495 which is an excellent wadcutter. I also have the 358091 which is the same wadcutter except with a bevel base. The 358091 is easier to get aligned with the brass during loading.
I also have the NOE 360-148-wc hb(hollow base) in 4 cavity. It works well but ends up being a bit tedious compared to the other two designs and really doesn't shoot any better for me.
I also have a Modern Bond full meplat wadcutter that shoots well at close range which is what I got it for. I haven't tried it out at longer ranges yet since I already have good loads for that.
I also have a 358432 which is an awesome wadcutter and very useful in both light target and full power loads. I even picked a copy of this one up from NOE in a hollow point design. Wonderful expansion with softer alloys.
I have tried both Lee designs and had good luck with them. I have tried the double ended wadcutters from both Lyman and Saeco with good accuracy.
I have tried wadcutter designs from Magma in both hard and softer alloys with good to great results depending on the gun.
I guess it is just really hard to find a bad wadcutter design these days.
That said it is really hard to beat the consistent accuracy I can get from all my revolvers with the Lyman 358311 round nose.

[RogerDat]

......
I also have the NOE 360-148-wc hb(hollow base) in 4 cavity. It works well but ends up being a bit tedious compared to the other two designs and really doesn't shoot any better for me.....

also have a 358432 which is an awesome wadcutter and very useful in both light target and full power loads. I even picked a copy of this one up from NOE in a hollow point design. Wonderful expansion with softer alloys.
......

That first one is sort of discouraging, that is the mold I just picked up in 2 cavity. Be my first try at something with pins. I always figured rather than count on expansion I would just go with larger bullet. 45 is a pre-expanded 38 hollow point.

I think the wad cutters that have a crimp groove to seat them out a bit are nice. Certainly easier to load. Hollow point in soft lead I can see that profile having some good expansion. Actually I'm guessing it hits like a thrown brick. Bookmarked the NOE page, I may want to look into that one later. Have a couple of other molds on my wish list ahead of more 38 WC molds but always on the lookout for another mold suggestion.

[Bookworm]

I have the 358495 wadcutter mold. I love it.

I have yet to find a 38 or 357 that doesn't shoot it well. Load it to 700 fps with soft lead, or 1200 fps with CCW, it shoots well.

With my 4-banger mold, I can stack 'em up quickly when casting.

[44man]

Your task is to find the alloy that does not lead your gun. Some soft boolits will blow lead from the gap and lead the cylinder fronts and the frame.

[tazman]

I think the wad cutters that have a crimp groove to seat them out a bit are nice. Certainly easier to load. .

All wadcutters have a crimp groove available to seat them out. Usually it is used for a grease groove.
I got some of my best accuracy using a full wadcutter crimped in the middle grease groove. The front of the boolit was a tight fit in the chamber throat and rerquired a bit more effort to push into the cylinder but it shot great. Not for use in a speedloader.

[rintinglen]

Don't be discouraged--the NOE RG molds are a little finicky, but get the mold hot and run the pot hotter than usual and you'll do just fine. They do shoot well, but try to run nothing harder than 20-1 for best results, but just about anything will give you good results. 2.7-3.0 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup, 3.0-3.3 grains of WW-231/HP-38 will give you nice tight groups.

[runfiverun]

yep run them like you need a lot of boolits today.

I shoot the 091 as my main wad cutter.
except for the ones I make from the NOE 140gr 8mm mold, probably not too many gas checked wad cutter type boolit molds out there. [as a bonus the little nose I put on them allows them to feed in the lever type rifles]
as good as I shoot pistols the 358477 shoots just as well for me and is easier to make.

[Kosh75287]

Not knowing a p.s.i. figure for the 2.7/Bullseye/148HBWC or for the 2.7-3.0/RedDot/148HBWC, it's difficult to determine by the "1440 rule" what hardness would be best for your revolver. Based on nothing but my own intuition, 1:40 tin:lead seems a bit too soft, and may not give "complete fill-out" in your moulds. The 1:30 tin:lead alloy seems too hard. Splitting the difference (1:35) amounts to roughly 2.8% tin, which should give adequate "fill-out", but still be soft enough for complete obturation at pressures I would EXPECT of wad cutter loads (10,000 + 500 p.s.i.).

Since complete "fill out" is a must, this may govern how much tin must be added, whether the resulting projectile is very soft, or too hard to obturate in chamber/bore. There are various methods of hardening cast projectiles (I like water quenching), but I'm not aware of methods to soften projectiles, short of remelting, adding more lead, and re-casting them (which may reintroduce the "fill-out" problem).

[RogerDat]

Just to toss this out there since wad with gas check was mentioned, has anyone tried a wad cutter using one of Pat Marlins plain base gas checks? I have some of those Lyman's and a fellow member here sent me some plain base gas checks from aluminum cans. I applied a few and they fit well.

So has anyone shot some of those PB gas checks?

[tazman]

That is an interesting idea. My only question is, what is the specific application?
At the moment I don't see a situation where that would be an improvement over something else. Please help enlighten me.