Garand Screwup-The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[AggiePharmD]

hate for that crimp to rip metal off the boolit as it passes by.

Well I'll add this to the list of things to change as well. Thanks.

[Scharfschuetze]

I also forgot to add that I'm seating the boolits to just at the top of the upper most driving band and crimping. Not sure if the crimp is necessary but I'd hate for a boolit to slip back into the case and not realize it.

I load my 311299 boolits for the Garand and Springfield (US 1917 also) to an overall length of 3.250" which works pretty well in US Military rifles chambered for the Ought-Six.

I only bell the case necks enough to allow for the boolit to seat without damaging it, while allowing about .003" of tension on the boolit. I then use a 308 Winchester taper crimp die to just close the flare of the bell without actually crimping the boolit. This is something you can play with. I use a .308" expanding plug which seems to give me enough tension on the boolit for use the the M1, but not so much that I'm sizing down the boolit when seating it. It's all a balancing act, but it is worth pursuing.

For expanding the neck, I generally use an RCBS die designed for the purpose and I have several different sizes of plugs for different cartridges. A Lyman M Die is also a good choice and I have several plugs of different sizes for that too. I generally use the .31 cal plug for the Ought-Six when using .310"or .311" boolits. Buckshot, a member here, can make differently sized plugs to your order for the M Die.

Aggie, annealing your case necks is really easy. Most people way "over due" the annealing using too much heat for too long.

For annealing, you can use a power screw driver with a socket head on it that holds your cases loosely. Just spin the case while applying heat from a propane torch for about two seconds and then drop into water. It's pretty fast and won't overly heat (anneal) your case's critical base and web areas.

[Adam Helmer]

Aggie,

I hope my cast boolit/Garand recipe will help you. I cast the Lee 312, 185 grain roundnose gas check boolit, dropped into a bucket of cold water from the mould and sized .309". My accuracy load is 36 grains of IMR4895 and overall length is 82MM. I do not use an M die nor do I crimp.

This load shoots to the same point of aim/point of impact at 100 yards as my 150 grain jacketed loads. I get a minimum amount of bore leading and mostly carbon in the gas cylinder. I have shot about 500 rounds of this load in 2015 and loaded another 50 rounds yesterday.

Adam

[vzerone]

Aggie,

I hope my cast boolit/Garand recipe will help you. I cast the Lee 312, 185 grain roundnose gas check boolit, dropped into a bucket of cold water from the mould and sized .309". My accuracy load is 36 grains of IMR4895 and overall length is 82MM. I do not use an M die nor do I crimp.

This load shoots to the same point of aim/point of impact at 100 yards as my 150 grain jacketed loads. I get a minimum amount of bore leading and mostly carbon in the gas cylinder. I have shot about 500 rounds of this load in 2015 and loaded another 50 rounds yesterday.

Adam

You should also try different bullets sizes with Adam's load. My Garand like .312. You should also expand your case necks to 1.5 to 2.0 thousands smaller then the bullet diameter. Don't use the j-word expander the dies come with, they are much tighter and setup up for holding a .308 diameter bullet. This really does make a difference.

[AggiePharmD]

Maybe I missed something somewhere but i was under the impression that unless you expanded to at least the size of the boolit, you would be shaving lead? Maybe I'm wrong there. I can see where my crimp or a heavy crimp could and would shave lead as the boolit exited the case mouth.

[AggiePharmD]

There seem to be so many variables that could be the issue. I guess I'll start with the most obvious, at least to me, which is the boolit hardness and lube. I'll try what I've got cast up which is COWW air-cooled and lubed with TAC X and BLL. If this cures it then great but if not I start with the others.

[smokeywolf]

AggiePharmD, you expand the I.D. of the case neck to .001-.0015 under boolit diameter, then bell the case mouth just enough so that you don't shave the O.D. of the boolit as you (seat) press it in. Those who don't crimp then use a crimp die just to remove the belling of the case mouth.

[Scharfschuetze]

To remove any confusion, the expanding process is separate from your sizing and seating operations and requires a third die. It is the same process as loading for revolver rounds or straight wall rifle cases such as the 38/55 or 45/70. It is well worth the extra cost and effort in making good cast boolit ammunition for any of the bottle neck cartridges.

As noted previously, the Lyman M Die is a good choice. Here is my old RCBS expanding die with various expanding plugs (.308" through .312") for everything from 7.5 Swiss though 303 British and 7.7 Jap expanding duties.

[AggiePharmD]

To remove any confusion, the expanding process is separate from your sizing and seating operations and requires a third die. It is the same process as loading for revolver rounds or straight wall rifle cases such as the 38/55 or 45/70. It is well worth the extra cost and effort in making good cast boolit ammunition for any of the bottle neck cartridges.

As noted previously, the Lyman M Die is a good choice. Here is my old RCBS expanding die with various expanding plugs (.308" through .312") for everything from 7.5 Swiss though 303 British and 7.7 Jap expanding duties.

Yes sir and I full agree and subscribe to this step in my loading process. My hang up was on expanding at or below your boolit diameter. I was under the impression you expanded the same as your boolit as expanding under would shave lead upon boolit seating. Maybe I used the wrong descriptive words?

Basically learned something new today about neck expansion. You can expand UNDER your boolit diameter without causing issues with saving lead AS LONG AS you flare the case mouth enough to accept base of the boolit prior to seating it.

The M-die looks to be setup different from your RCBS expander die. Where yours looks like a funnel at the top, the Lyman version has a full step up in diameter I believe which creates an internal ledge so to speak that accepts your boolit. Mine usually allows me to preset the boolit into the mouth of the case to cover the gas checkm

[Scharfschuetze]

Yes, the sizing die will size your neck to way below what you want, say .302" internal diameter or so. The expander plug, as you've already surmised, open up the ID to a usable diameter and the plugs just allow you control over that diameter so as to match your boolit's diameter. I generally like a diameter of -.002 to -.003" below the boolit diameter in semi-auto rifles.

Another option is to use an adjustable neck sizing die such as the Redding collet or bushing dies. These allow you to adjust the ID during the sizing operation. You still need to bell somewhat for cast boolits though. While these work a treat in bolt rifles, I haven't really tried them in the Garand. I've found their best application to be for long range match loads using a bolt rifle at say 600 through a 1,000 yards with jacketed bullets. Still, it is another option on the road to good ammo.

[AggiePharmD]

I cleared it up for myself. Best money you can spend is on a micrometer! I mic'd my Lyman plug. The plug stem is at 0.306" up to a hard shoulder that then bumps up the case mouth to exactly 0.311". It then tapers from there up to 0.320" plus.

Now everything is back on track for me. I was under the mistaken impression that the full length of the plug was at a diameter of 0.311". Learned something else today. Thanks guys.

[vzerone]

Maybe I missed something somewhere but i was under the impression that unless you expanded to at least the size of the boolit, you would be shaving lead? Maybe I'm wrong there. I can see where my crimp or a heavy crimp could and would shave lead as the boolit exited the case mouth.

You can't expand to the size of the bullet because you won't have enough neck tension. Say the bullet is .312 and you size to .312 your will have a little spring back and it may not be enough tension.

Far as starting the bullet you use either a RCBS expander die or Lyman M die specifically for opening the mouth of the case to allow easy cast bullet insertion and seating. I prefer the RCBS type as they just flare the case mouth rather then the "step" method that Lyman makes. You just need enough flare to start the bullet. You can either crimp your round or have the crimp set to "just" take the flare out.

[Wayne Smith]

Annealing brass softens work hardened brass. Military brass tends to be thick and stiff anyway. It also prevents neck splits from over hardened brass. I anneal in my lead pot - get it up to about 750 degrees, grab a piece of brass by the rim and hold the neck in the brass until your fingers hurt. Do a slow count as you do this. Then get a pair of pliers and do the rest of the brass to that slow count. Has worked for me for years. Admittedly I've never done it with military brass.

[AggiePharmD]

I came up with about 4-6 different tests to run. I'd list them here but I don't have the paper in front of me. In essence, I've attempted to change as few variables as possible each time. For now I've changed to my AC-COWW with my TAC-X/BLL combo sized at 0.311. After reviewing the above info I've decided to omit the crimp in each test. I miked the case mouth after seating the boolit and it was around 0.313. I touched that down to around 0.312 with my crimp die which shouldn't shave lead. I measured a left over round from the previous batch and the crimp was WAY under 0.311 by about .002 or so. Charge was 32.5 gr IMR 4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler. Loaded up 24 rounds as a test as I figure I'd see lead by then if it were gonna rear it's ugly head. I plan to fire a couple full house rounds to clear any last bit of missed lead and then run my bore snake a couple times before beginning.

If this doesn't work, I'll change the diameter down to 0.310 and keep other stuff as-is. Next would be WC-COWW at 0.311 then 0.310. After that I'll just start throwing rocks.

[AggiePharmD]

Update:

Loaded 24 rounds of my AC-COWW with TAC X/BLL sized at 0.311, case mouth closed up to around 0.312 (no crimp), 32.5 grains of a IMR 4895. Shot at 50 yards.

Grouping was not all that good on the 24 shots. The good news is the action didn't lock up and there was no lead in the barrel. The barrel had a nice bright liquidity looking film inside instead of the dry look you get with copper bullets. The muzzle felt tacky and slick. The lube worked. Only lead present was a bit on the op-rod piston and a ring around the gas cylinder opening.

Obviously more work ahead. The simplest thing to change next is to try a 0.310" boolit this time. After that I'll have to do some water quenched boolit casting.

[VintageRifle]

Lee makes a universal neck expanding die. Works OK. However, it works even better with an NOE expander plug.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...4b03dp40ns8cc6

[43PU]

My load for my M1 is 34 grn of IMR 4064 loaded to the crimp groove of the lee 200 GRN 309 powder coated with HF red, checked and sized to .311. I shot over 500 of these in a month with out any problems and I have killed deer with this load, and it shoots off a rest to about 2.5 inches at 100 yards.

Check out this Thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...nd-Kills-again