mosin nagant

[Taylor]

While visiting with family this past weekend,my brother took me to a pawn shop that he does business with.This guy sell's mosin's for $300.He also showed me a 3 ring binder with 2 bullet holes,touching,so close they could be one.He told me that was from chambering and firing a 308 win in a mosin at 100 yards.Well I told him he was full of dog poo,he got mad and I left.This same guy a few weeks ago, sold my brother a pistol chambered for the 9mm Largo,then sold him a box of 38 super's to shoot.Told him it would be good.I told brother to not shoot them it was not a good idea.This character seems to have the impression that,if it will fit,it will shoot.Now I have never tried the 308 in a Mosin,and I don't have very much experience with the 9mm Largo.Any thought's or input on this?

[Taylor]

I put it in the wrong place,sorry.

[lavenatti]

The guy is putting the wrong round in an old weapon and bragging about it?

Seriously, avoid any advice he may give.

[3006guns]

You put it in the right place as far as I'm concerned.

I believe it was the Astra 300 or 600 that could digest something like six different 9mm rounds and was good for winning bets. You bet the other guy that it would shoot them all, but were careful to load that last one (a .380) as it didn't have enough poop to keep the slide back, so you hoped the other guy wouldn't notice. It's an old stunt, but telling someone that any pistol that will shoot .38 super is O.K. when it's not designed for them is plain stupid. Good way to wreck a gun and get some injuries.

Way back in the mists of time, batches of MN rifles were rechambered for 30-06 in order to make them "saleable". You can imagine the accuracy, firing a .308 down a barrel that could be as big as .316. What's weird is that American shooters have been familiar with the 7.62x54 since the twenties and it's been readilly available! Not sure if the .308 is shorter than the 7.62x54, but I think it is...so ask the guy how it was rechambered......with a metal "replacing" reamer???

We had a new sporting goods store open here in town some years ago, owned by a young man who had a 6.5 Carcano in the rack tagged as a 7x57 mauser. I told him of the error and he steadfastly insisted the the gun was safe to shoot. I went home and ran a copy of cartridge and barrel dimensions, returned to the store and slammed it down on the counter. "Read!" I said. He retagged the gun and we've been good friends since.

So you were right on both counts.....advising your brother and your opinion of the seller.

[truckjohn]

Yes - it's absolutely irresponsible for a seller to sell someone the wrong ammo for a rifle - especially when they should know better....

That being said......

Stand up a 7.62x54R next to a 308 win.... You would swear that the 308 is just a rimless 7.62x54r....... Headspace isn't actually a problem - as the 308 has a chamber rim to shoulder dimension that is almost identical to the 7.62x54r...... The base on the 308 is a smidge smaller - so reloading the brass may be a bit of a challenge... but otherwise - I bet you could chamber and shoot standard 308 win all day long in a good Mosin....

It's nothing like the trouble caused by shoving an 8mm mauser into a 30-06 or trying to load 7mm mauser into a 7mm mag..... (I have found plenty of wrecked 7mm mauser brass at the range from shooting it in a 7-mag....)

Thanks

[wiljen]

Every once in awhile you meet one of these self-professed experts and your only real hope is that the person they kill with their advice is them-self and not some poor schlep that doesn't know better than to listen to them.

[John 242]

Yes - it's absolutely irresponsible for a seller to sell someone the wrong ammo for a rifle - especially when they should know better....

That being said......

Stand up a 7.62x54R next to a 308 win.... You would swear that the 308 is just a rimless 7.62x54r....... Headspace isn't actually a problem - as the 308 has a chamber rim to shoulder dimension that is almost identical to the 7.62x54r...... The base on the 308 is a smidge smaller - so reloading the brass may be a bit of a challenge... but otherwise - I bet you could chamber and shoot standard 308 win all day long in a good Mosin....

It's nothing like the trouble caused by shoving an 8mm mauser into a 30-06 or trying to load 7mm mauser into a 7mm mag..... (I have found plenty of wrecked 7mm mauser brass at the range from shooting it in a 7-mag....)

Thanks

The .308s neck is wider (.343 vs .336)
The .308s base is narrower. (.473 vs .489)
From the case mouth to the base (of the shouder on a .308 is 0.455 vs. 0.541 for the 7.62x54r.
The bottom of the case head to the base of the shoulder on the .308 is 1.560 in. On the 7.62x54r the base of the case (not the rim) to the base of the shoulder is 1.641 in. In other words, the .308, if I am right, wont headspace right in a 7.62x54r rifle.
I'm no engineer and I am no gunsmith, but what this means to me is that I personally wouldn't try shooting a .308 in a 7.62x54r rifle on the off chance that the base might sepperate or the neck split.
Again though, I'm no expert.
There are a few on here, though and I am currious as to what they think about this.
By the way, the numbers are from the Lyman 3rd Edition Cast bullet manual plus a little math on my part. YMMV because my math skills suck.

[Taylor]

I have decided that when I am with family,this will be one place that I will not visit again.Scott(brother),told me that when "dad" was running the store,things were good."Son" now is in charge and knows everything.The more I talked to this moron,the angrier I became.Knowing that he was wrong in every respect.There are a lot of people who know more about guns than me,but I feel confident that he is not one of them.I hope that my brother does his research before making any purchase from him,especially if he is unfamiliar with the rifle or handgun.

[truckjohn]

As I said... I would never condone telling someone to use the wrong ammo on purpose from the position of an "Expert" .....

Measurements from the FL sized cases sitting in front of me....

Case - from bottom of cartridge to bottom of shoulder
7.62x54 1.565"
308 1.562"

Top of shoulder
7.62x54 1.754"
308 1.717"

Diameter at base of shoulder
7.62x54 0.438
308 0.440

Yes - the datum points on the prints are quite different.... but the cartridge neck of the 308 is safely within the cartridge neck of the 7.62x54 chamber... The bullet is slightly smaller than barrel OD....

Base of shell OD above the rim
7.62x54 0.484"
308 0.465" - this is the significant difference.... and I wouldn't really want to re-use the brass when it balloons out like it will at the base.... You might end up with loose primers.... But... I do have Factory guns that have more chamber clearance than this at the base of the cartridge.... and shoot quite well...

Loaded case neck OD
7.62x54 0.333"
308 0.334"

OAL
7.62x54 2.100"
308 2.020"
As you can see from the measurements - most of the 0.080" is in the case neck itself....

Now - Case capacity wise, the 7.62x54 is listed as 64cc vs 56cc on the 308.... There's a whole lot less powder in that 308 - firing it off would likely end up with a moderately reduced velocity shot.... Think about how much we ask the brass in a WWI GI issue #1 Mk III Enfield to stretch when firing in those crazy large chambers....

Trust me - a whole lot worse things have been done in the name of "Fire Forming" brass.... Remember that Ackley advocated fire forming with "Full house" loads.... not extra light squib loads....

As I said - I wouldn't do it, or tell other folks to do it.... There are a whole lot of people who should know better (including Military and Police) that don't get the difference between 7.62 Nato and 7.62x54R.... We shouldn't make excuses for them.... In this case - it looks like no one would get hurt.

Thanks

[wallenba]

Looks like everythings been addressed except....$300 for a Mosin? An exceptional carbine maybe. My local Dunham's has them for $119.00.

[rststeve]

If you want to shoot a 308 in an MN may I suggest a rifle clamp and a long string

[swheeler]

I think NOT visiting his store anymore is a GOOD idea! The guy is an ID ten tee through and through. I think I know of one rifle and ammo combo he sold, you can read about it here-http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=110896

[Taylor]

We also think that he is selling his handloads as boxed ammo.BTW,I paid $99 for my MN.Hex reciever.

[swheeler]

We also think that he is selling his handloads as boxed ammo.BTW,I paid $99 for my MN.Hex reciever.

I wouldn't want to shoot anything he handloaded!

[mdi]

I will only shoot what's stamped on the barrel. I met one of those "gun shop gurus" a while back and haven't darkend his door since. I have talked to and heard advice from many gun counter clerks and found I have to choose which ones I'll listen to; has to be older than me and have all his fingers....

[DWM]

A friend many years ago when we have no boxer cases for relaod , told me he reloads 308 cases fired in a MN , he uses MN 7,62 x 54 R dies with a Nº2 shell holder , he uses a bit of tape on the base of the case to center in the chamber... cases are a bit ballooned but he size enough for cambering not return case to .308 dimensions... and he do it , maybe ten times each case , no problem.... I think he was crazy but as Truck said a .308 round it's basically a rimless 7,62x54...

Daniel

[WineMan]

There were reports of finding 7.62x51 NATO empty brass with bailing wire around the extractor groove and tape around the base in Bosnia, during the NATO mission there. Not the best way to go but a useful expedient when captured NATO ammunition was available.

Wineman

[roverboy]

I wouldn't want to try it, but i guess it could work...........

[spqrzilla]

There are a heck of a lot of things that "work" ... until they don't. Substituting calibers is just a stupid idea.

The 9mm Largo / .38 Super substitution is just as dumb regardless of how close the dimensioning is. Not least when there is plenty of 9mm Largo ammo around.

If he is selling his own handloads as new ammunition, his conduct is criminal fraud if not a Federal crime if he lacks an ammo manufacturers license. Since I suspect that he's also not insured, I'd not buy a box of any ammo from him in the future.

This pawn shop sounds like a temple of Fail.

[Doble Troble]

The surplus Santa Barbara 9 mm Largo I've shot is at least as hot as 38 Super - I probably have 800 rounds of it still laying around because I'm scared to shoot it. Talk about fire-breathing... The supers have a rim that the Largo and 38 ACP don't. I can't see any other dimensional difference. Unless you reload, 38 super ain't cheap, flaming hot Largo is.

$300 MNs are all it would take for me to permanently leave a gun shop - unless they were the fake sniper versions w/scope and mount.

Shooting 308 in 7.62 x 54R doesn't seem like advice that a successful gun shop owner will be dispensing for very long.