.357 Mag Full Power w/ Hard Cast?

I'm new to the forum, hoping this is the place to post...

I purchased a box of reloading supplies from an old lady at a garage sale and here's a list of what's inside: 2 lbs of Red Dot (unopened, new label so it seems relatively new), 1 lb of 2400 (unopened but an older container stating "rifle powder", 2000 qty Bab-Co hard cast 125 gr /.357 dia / semi-wadcutter (like a flat nosed cone, has a small crimping groove), and about 500 winchester small pistol primers. I've never loaded a hard cast lead bullet and was kinda shocked to find almost no load data for a 125 gr lead bullet in 357 mag. I have found a couple of low power loads, but nothing in the full power realm. What's the reason, is it just not popular or is there a safety / leading issue I should be concerned with? The gun I plan to use them in is a S&W 686 4" six shot. Also, any load info would be greatly helpful, especially with the current shortage of components I'd like to use these bullets and powders together, hopefully at full or near full 357 mag power.

PS...I'd share how much I paid for the box but I don't want to be hated for eternity. lol

Grandson,

Some advice from an old timer: hard cast as used by the commercial bullet casters means nothing. It's a term that they all use for varying hardness of bullets.

Don

Yeah they only cast hard ( and hard lubes ) for protecting the product during transit... the better bullets / lubes are often lesser than HARD CAST anyway... be modest with your expectations and enjoy your bountiful haul, well done...

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Originally Posted by USSR

Grandson,

Some advice from an old timer: hard cast as used by the commercial bullet casters means nothing. It's a term that they all use for varying hardness of bullets.

Don

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My current Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook doesn't provide load data specifically for 125 gr SWCs but DOES have loads for 120 gr. RN and TC designs cast from straight Lino. Start loads for 2400 are 13.0 and 13.5, respectively, for 1100-1150 fps going up to 15.5.0 gr max at around 1500. My personal experience with commercial 'hardcast' tells me that trying to push much past 1200-1250 fps is asking for sufficient leading to require some serious bore cleaning...like getting out the ol' Lewis Lead Remover or opening a fresh box of Chore Boy copper scrubbing pads.

Bill

I would give those bullets a tumble in LLA/mineral spirits (maybe two) before using them ... especially sized at only .357

just my opinion


jd

I'm assuming you have empty .357mag brass. If it were me and the components you listed were all I had to work with.
I would load the bullets with those primers and around 4.0 grains of the Red Dot and work up to no more than 5.0 grains in .2 intervals.
See which load gives the best accuracy. If these give decent accuracy and little to no leading then maybe try working up a full house load with the 2400.

IIRC, the Rifle powder note on 2400 changed about 20 years ago with a name change in manufacturing. Use it as normal data shows.

Thanks for the advice! I'm clueless as to why though. Is there a coating that should be removed?

Thank you for the advice.

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Originally Posted by Kraschenbirn

My current Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook doesn't provide load data specifically for 125 gr SWCs but DOES have loads for 120 gr. RN and TC designs cast from straight Lino. Start loads for 2400 are 13.0 and 13.5, respectively, for 1100-1150 fps going up to 15.5.0 gr max at around 1500. My personal experience with commercial 'hardcast' tells me that trying to push much past 1200-1250 fps is asking for sufficient leading to require some serious bore cleaning...like getting out the ol' Lewis Lead Remover or opening a fresh box of Chore Boy copper scrubbing pads.

Bill

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That's what I was afraid of concerning a massive cleaning chore. Thank you for the help.

I would use the 125's for 38 special under 950fps. Red dot will work for this. 2400 is for going fast but you can slow it down without a problem but going to low it will become dirty. You will probably get into a leading problem over 1000fps with out a gas check.

Make no mistake, leading sucks. But if you have the chore boy technique down, it’s quick and easy and really not that bad. The easiest way to get leading out is to shoot a known good load that doesn’t lead.

I run the RCBS 38-150-swc cast from wheel weights at full speed using w296 powder without leading in my gp100. The same bullet, used at 38 special velocities leads the bore. The point is, you won’t know if your gun will lead until you try a particular combination.

Here's some loading tips: with cast bullets (called "boolits" on this site) there's some things that are better done differently than with jacketed bullets. When you load jacketed bullets you can generally seat and crimp the bullet in one operation. With cast bullets it is usually better to do the seating and crimping as separate operations. If you set your seating die to seat and crimp all at once it can shave lead from the sides of the bullet, which isn't going to help with accuracy very much.

I've found that you can make better cast bullet cartridges by having the case mouths belled just enough that the bullet will just start to enter the case, then seat the bullet to the proper depth with the die body backed off enough that it will not crimp. Then after all the bullets are seated back off the seating stem and screw down the die body, then run the cartridges back through the die to crimp the case mouths. (I use a single stage press, so this might be a little awkward on a progressive)

Another thing is that for full power magnum loads a gas checked boolit design is preferred. Yes, a plain based boolit could be made to work, but this usually requires some development to prevent barrel leading. If you're just starting out loading with cast bullets you'll have much better results loading to around the 850 to 900 fps range, and learning as you go. It's discouraging to get a badly leaded bore on your first try with cast, and then think that's the norm. It's rewarding to get good accuracy and performance with cast on your first try, and then have an interest in learning more. I'd recommend that you try some loads in the 38 special power range using some of that Red Dot and have the rewarding experience.

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Originally Posted by 405grain

Here's some loading tips: with cast bullets (called "boolits" on this site) there's some things that are better done differently than with jacketed bullets. When you load jacketed bullets you can generally seat and crimp the bullet in one operation. With cast bullets it is usually better to do the seating and crimping as separate operations. If you set your seating die to seat and crimp all at once it can shave lead from the sides of the bullet, which isn't going to help with accuracy very much.

I've found that you can make better cast bullet cartridges by having the case mouths belled just enough that the bullet will just start to enter the case, then seat the bullet to the proper depth with the die body backed off enough that it will not crimp. Then after all the bullets are seated back off the seating stem and screw down the die body, then run the cartridges back through the die to crimp the case mouths. (I use a single stage press, so this might be a little awkward on a progressive)

Another thing is that for full power magnum loads a gas checked boolit design is preferred. Yes, a plain based boolit could be made to work, but this usually requires some development to prevent barrel leading. If you're just starting out loading with cast bullets you'll have much better results loading to around the 850 to 900 fps range, and learning as you go. It's discouraging to get a badly leaded bore on your first try with cast, and then think that's the norm. It's rewarding to get good accuracy and performance with cast on your first try, and then have an interest in learning more. I'd recommend that you try some loads in the 38 special power range using some of that Red Dot and have the rewarding experience.

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Appreciate the advice, thank you.

Good advice 405. Years ago I got a gp100 and tried some commercial cast boolits through it. Got bad leading and that prevented me from getting into boolit casting. I got a good start because of this site and have not had bad leading issues at all.

Commercial hard cast are much more likely to cause leading problems than properly worked up home cast boolits.

However, they find a lot of satisfactory use in medium to low power practice loads. The suggestion to use Red Dot under them is spot on. I have probably gone through over 10 lbs of Promo (the bulk version of Red Dot) loaded under 120 and 125 cast in 38 Sp and 357 Mag and even 357 max. That is a lot of ammo at the charge levels we are talking about.

For light loads, I use tumble lube and for heavier loads I use PC.

In 357 cases, Quickload says you can go up to around 5.7 grs of Red Dot and still be under the pressure rating for 39 Sp +P. I doubt that you can push up to "magnum pressures" without getting into leading problems with the commercial hard cast.

After getting a plinking load that works, you may want to buy some powder coated bullets. They will be much more likely to perform OK in medium of full magnum power levels using your "magnum" powder, 2400. Still, you may not be able to get leading free performance all the way up to the charge levels shown for equivalent jacket bullets. I find that even medium magnum power level loads are stout enough to be plenty satisfying for anything short of something like big game hunting.

If you really "need" some full power loads, buying a box or two of jacket bullets is still a whole lot cheaper than buying 357 factory ammo.

Unfortunately it probably will not be long before you run out of primers. If you get desperate, start checking out the Midway availability mid-morning on weekdays. With shipping and hazmat Midway is running around $100 for 1000 primers. Much higher than anybody is happy about, but even with $0.10 primers, reloading is much less than factory ammo.

Hie thee to a gunshop or good bookshop and get the Lyman 50th Reloading manual - it is far from the only good one but it probably is the most readily available. Read, read, and read the sections on the reloading process so you know what you are doing and have some understanding of why you are doing it. If you can find it get the 4th Cast Bullet Manual from the same company - it has more loads for cast.

Once you have done your homework get back to us about specific loads for your situation.